Batteries blowing up from constant charge.

[Mikey]

I and three friends of mine have the same basic model Guardians that we installed in July of 2004 during a bad Hurricane season in Florida. All four generators have displayed the same behavior with regards to battery charging. Three batteries have blown apart, and when the fourth guy checked his, it was very low on water. We believe they are being overcharged to the point of boiling off the electrolyte, creating pressurized hydrogen, and then blowing up (three of them literally blew themselves into many pieces). Too much of a coincidence to be a defective battery or the occasional defective charging circuit. Do these generators produce a constant trickle charge without a high voltage cutoff? If so, I'll disconnect the charging lead provided by Guardian and install a Battery Tender smart charger like I have for my motorcycle. I just thought I'd pass this observation along, as a pattern of blown apart batteries seems dangerous to all - especially service techs who may be the first ones to make a spark near the defunct battery.

[Kelly Myers]

Well, we've installed thousands of these, and sold hundreds upon hundreds of batteries with generators that we've shipped out around the country.

If you all installed them all at the same time, I'm guessing you purchased the same batteries also.

Sounds like you have a battery defect, not a multiple generator defect. Not saying that it can't happen, but very unlikely that I've never seen a battery charger explode a battery, and you've had 4.

What brand battery? We used to use Interstate, but we switched to Deka because their half the price, but the same make.

[DAVECAD2.0]

Kelly:
I know of two people who installed Grardian 15kw models in 2004/2005. They had the same thing happen. When I checked mine (after three years) I had to add just over 1/2 gallon of water! I was probably about three starts away from experiencing the same thing. These things trickel charge constantly. Mikeys' right. On a constant charge the electrolyte will boil off very quickly. The lower it goes the bigger the space for hydrogen/oxygen to collect. Under load (starting) the battery overheats, plates warp, touch, spark, CABOOM!
The charging systems on this vintage are extremly dangerous. Check the water level in the battery monthly!! These are not defective batteries. Defective batteries crack, dead short between cells, or the posts come loose. The don't explode! What I decribed above is the only thing that will cause a battery to explode.
PS. We all had different brands of batteries. Purchased at different places.

[msqd628]

I too, after 1.5 years in service, found my battery significantly low on water. I added over a quart to my Interstate MT 26 to bring it up to the tabs.

What is the solution and does Generac or Kelly have any comments or suggestions?

Barring the explosion isn?t constantly (over) charging a battery detrimental to its health and overall service life?

Is it as simple as pulling the 5A fuse to disable the charging circuit and installing a battery minder as one of the writers suggested?

[Pat242]

One more battery explodes!! Installed a 7,000 watt Guardian Plus in Oct. of 2005, last week, the battery exploded when the generator went into exercise mode. I really don't see how it is all atributable to defective batteries.

[Kelly Myers]

I'm going to send a link to this thread to the generac engineers. I'm very curious to what they say about this. I'm not kidding you, we have NEVER had a battery "explode", and we deal with a very large quanity of generators.

If you guys can post up the model number of your battery, that would be great.

[Pat242]

Thanks, I am curious as to what they think the problem is, and more importantly what the solution is. I don't know the model # of the battery. It was an Auto Craft Silver purchased at Advance Auto Store.

Thanks again
PS I just noticed that I stated in my previous post that the generator was installed in 2002. I have edited post to correct date of Oct 2005.

[Bill Liedtke]

Kelly,

You talk to GENERAC Daily. I took the time to write in to them twice-a lot of time, regarding the exploding batteries and the batteries drying-up prematurely. They said they would answer both times and they have not. You said you would ask them for a response.

We know your experience does not include any instances that you are aware of. Fine, we believe you. However, unless their own techs and several of your forum members are thought to be liars, some have and I think it would be better for Generac to take the high road and respond, rather than just avoid answering and hope it goes away.

Can you get an answer from Generac for us or tell us they won't address it and they want us to just "go away"?

Bill

[Kelly Myers]

I was simply told that if the batteries are checked on a 6 month inverval (it says that in the manual) that there should never be an issue.

I've purposely been having my techs check battery levels on all of our maint (3-5 per day) and we have yet to find one low enough where it would worry anybody.

[Bill Liedtke]

Would they tell us if any of their models have a higher-than-optimum unloaded voltage? I have seen a lot of cheap chargers put out upwards of 16-18 volts w/o a load. Of course, when you hook them to a 12 volt battery the voltage reading drops to whatever the battery potential is and there is minimal current, but it is that high unloaded voltage that cooks batteries. Ideally, an excellent charger will roll off both the voltage AND the current as the battery comes up to optimum. It is my suspicion that just *possibly* some of their models may not have an optimal circuit. It is almost impossible to measure the voltage difference w/o the right load on the circuit and then the voltage will come down to the batteriy's potential. My battery checked 14.1 volts right before it exercised which is too high IMO.

[Kelly Myers]

A car battery at 14.1 volts is the best thing to hope for from a trickle charger :D

All of my battery maintainers put out anywhere from 13.7V-14.2V. I just used a RMS Fluke on them.

I think the only problem with batteries is the lack of maintenance. I may be wrong, but that is my thinking.

[Bill Liedtke]

Kelly,

You could be right. Some of the batteries were of the maintenance free variety like the one written up about in QST magazine. Not much you can do to them.

In cases like mine, I have a maintenance-free battery so about all I do to it is keep the terminals clean. The little felt washers and a light coat of grease and everything looks fine. I hope I get 4-5 years from it and I will be happy. Some others have not been so lucky I'm afraid for whatever reason.

It would still be great if Generac would respond -even if it is to say that they have reviewed the chronology of designs they have used over the years and find nothing that causes them any concern from a pure engineering standpoint and that today's models have the same basic circuit logic as the early models. That would at least be taking a stand behind their product. No response to someone who takes the time and interest to try to alert them seems rather insensitive toward the customer. Maybe it's me, but no response whatsoever either means we have a problem, but we do not want to talk about it with you OR we have no problem, but we choose to just blow you off and hope you'll go away. I prefer the latter, but would prefer a response even more! I'm done with it and I just hope no one else gets hurt.

Thanks for doing what you can Kelly.

Bill

p.s. lost power twice today- you just gotta love it!

[Bobby V]

I too had my batery explode this last summer(2007). I got about a 2 years us use out of mine. I bought the battery from Advance auto parts here in Florida and during a weekly inspection of the generator I saw white chalk like substance around the base of the pad opened the lid and front to see my battery in several pieces, bought a new battery from Nissan service center and now I check the battery about once a month. Should we disconnect the trickle charger or what?

[Bill Liedtke]

Generac refuses to directly answer this complaint Bobbie. I have written them twice since we have at least a dozen now that we know of. Clearly they have an issue they do not want to address. If I were an attorney, I would earn a fat commission off a class action suit. 12 batteries out of just this small forum tells me they have a problem that is way bigger than anyone could imagine. If anyone ever gets the entire "population" of generac owners notified and the question about batteries raised, they will be in deep yogurt. At one point I did not want to see something like this happen, but since they have refused to answer my question which I entered on their web site where these types of questions are appropriate, I will stir the pot gladly. Kelly is in denial- sorry Kelly, but this is your forum and you have too many instances to just keep telling us that YOU have never seen it happen.

The answer Bobbie to be safe is to keep an eye on fluid levels in your battery. If you have a maintenance-free battery, you can't do this. So, NEVER open your front panel w/o goggles over your eyes. If you don't mind spending the money, disconnect the internal charging system and externally hook up a Battery Tender (this is a brand name) to your battery and leave it on there. The Battery Tender is the only brand I trust and they are about $55
bucks. The internal Generac charger "cooks" the juice right out of your battery. If you are working on your unit and start it up with the panel open, you run an increased risk of explosion as the heat generated inside the battery during a start cycle is high enough to ignite trapped gases. Read the other posts here about the subject.

[GMTech]

How do we go about disconnecting the built in charger?

[Bill Liedtke]

First of all, I want to modify my comment above slightly. I said Kelly is in denial and that should be clarified-If Kelly has personal knowledge of let's say 10,000 units and he has never heard of a single one with a cooked/exploded battery, what is he to say? He has never personally had it happen around his lifetime (27 years young he is, but seen alot). But I do believe he is in denial or at least taking the "high road" as if truth be known, he likely has many of those units that wouldn't contact him if they did have a problem or the owner figured "I must be the only one-I should have bought a better battery".

This forum is his baby and there are too many here to be just a coincidence. I would like to see Ziller escalate the issue until we get a response from Generac about this. How many complaints have they had and after a review of any/all models do they believe there is a potential for a catastrophy? I personally know of a Generac elite dealer who has had two explode-one in his tech's face. Is this something that warrants no responce? Is denial too harsh a word? You pick one, I am not happy that Generac has ignored my two requests for information entered on their own website.

On to how to remove. I believe it may be as easy as removing a fuse, but as each unit is different, they must be done on a case by case basis, but on my 4390 it is a simple one-wire pull. Unfortuately, I gave my 4000 series manual away to someone on this forum who needed it more than I! I do have a service book on some of the 5000 series model and if you post your model, Kelly or I will be able to tell you which wire to lift. Your operator manual will also have a schematic in the back. If worse comes to worse, if you scan the schenatic and send it to me I can give you the correct method for your model. LikeI said, Kelly may say it is as simple as pulling the 5 amp fuse, but I don't have the benefit Kelly does of knowing all their models and their logic may repeat over and over in all models or may differ greatly. Kelly has the manuals and the wider knowledge of all models. I would have to look at your unit's schematic to trace back to where the charger circuit comes in. For units with two square modules like a 4390, the left module is the charger module and the right module is the Voltage regulator module. It's simple, but for me I need to see your schematic. IFYOU SEND ME YOURS VIA EMAIL I WILL ANSWER ALL REQUESTS TO: BillLiedtke@netscape.net Hope that helps.
You will then need a substitute to perform this fuction and be aware that performing a modification to a warranteed unit will void your warranty-so you are screwed if you do and *potentially* screwed if you don't even though the battery charging side really has nothing to do with damage to the unit. Worst case would be an improper mod would cause you battery to run low.

Bill

[GMTech]

I have a model 5240 7KW that I installed last year .I checked the battery last night and it seems to be fine.No smell of acid boiling or any warm/hot wires to the battery.
TIA

[Bill Liedtke]

Excellent. Keep an eye on the water level if your can be maintained. Obviously not all units exhibit the condition, but enough due to warrant caution.

Bill

[Kelly Myers]

Hi, me checking in.

No bad batteries yet. We do service/maint on aprox 12 generators a day.

[Bill Liedtke]

Bill,

I hope you don't mind me e-mailing you regarding a question on Generac Generator's battery issue.
I registered with the Ziller forum, however I couldn't post yet, and I didn't get a call back from Generac yet.

Anyhow, add me to the "Blown up battery" list, as today I witnessed a blown up battery as never before , on my Generac (15kW, model 4390) generator, originally installed in August 2005. Acid from the battery did quite a number on the unit interior
as well as the concrete base, not to mention battery parts in shreds inside the generator.

After cleaning the mess, I had a spare 12V battery which I hooked up and tried to restart the unit. However, every time
the unit would trip on "exerciser not set". Now, I'm hoping yourself or someone in the forum may have seen my situation
before and have some insight to why the unit may not start after the blown-up battery. All the fuses are O.K., and the starter
relay does pick-up after 10 seconds of standard start-up/exerciser set procedure, but the starter and cranking never take place.
I can smell the LP coming through, but no crank. Before fully going through all of the tests in the "Diagnostic Manual", I'm hoping you
may have any "obvious" suggestions that I may be overlooking.

Thanks in advance,
Best Regards
Marc Culig
Wilmington, North Carolina

P.S. Small world, I notice you are in Valparaiso, IN., as I grew up in Gary, graduated from Merrillville ('75), and Purdue (Lafayette - '80), and lived in
Valpo as recently as 1999. Even odder, like you, I started my MBA at Indiana University 20 years ago...but never finished due to a 3 month overseas
assignment (with GE) that lasted 18 years, and I worked as manager at U.S. Steel for 10 years.


Dear Marc, you will be told your battery is of inferior quality and you did not check it often enough. Oh, it's a maintenance-free battery and there is nothing you can do??? Well, there you go! Just be glad your face was not in front of it and thanks for writing. Goodbye!

You will hear nothing from Generac or anyone else- sorry.

Will your unit start in manual and run at all? I gave you the exerciser reset procedure, but not sure whether you can even start in manual. If it will start and run at all in manual, there is a great chance that you dodged a bullit. As for your personal problems, I suggest you just go away and do not bother us with you exploding batteries. It happens all the time- no big deal. Get ba life.

[Kelly Myers]

condensed battery issues to one thread * Some items may look out of place.

If you're having comments about batterys exploding, please use this thread. Thanks

[Bill Liedtke]

I spoke with a Generac customer service rep this morning. It is their opinion that in order to assist, they will need all the same information that they would need for any warranty type claim. Even if you believe your unit is out of warranty-and it very well may be- this information is very important to them getting a handle on what is happening:

Model # and Serial #
When bought and where?
Who installed?
What type battery? Is/was it maintenace free type (unable to open)
When did it occur? Explode or just fail?

This is needed to bring this forward. Please post here your responses as well as contact information where you can be reached either by phone or email.

Thx Bill Liedtke

[mike_y]

In my unqualified and uninformed opinion, this sounds like a charging voltage regulator problem. I had much the same thing happen with a car battery. It didn't explode, but the electrolyte was almost gone from a couple of cells and, when I added distilled water, there was a lot of gassing. This was a 48-month battery in its 43rd month of service, but the car was still in warranty and the service manager found that the voltage regulator in the generator was bad, replaced the generator under warranty, and also convinced the distributor that they should replace my battery for free because the voltage regulator had destroyed the battery. Needless to say, I have been using that service manager's shop ever since.

[Bill Liedtke]

Yes, in these cases the current may be regulated down to a trickle, but if the unloaded voltage differential compared to the battery is too high, this "cooking" can occur. Ideally, as a battery is charged to its full potential, the current should most certainly "roll off" to nearly nil, but the voltage at the source should also roll off to say 14.1 volts DC (just for arguments sake).

In some poorly designed charging systems which I am NOT saying is the case here, the unloaded output of the charger may be say 18VDC at 1amp (all hypothetical now just for simplicity). This difference allows for a more rapid charge. However, as the voltage of the battery reaches its nominal say 13.8 VDC, the charger should also be close to 13.8 VDC (slightly higher) with maybe .1 or .2 amps max. If the potential voltage stays at 18, you got problems. Of course, when you hook the charger up to the battery, the voltage of the circuit will fall to the battery's potential so you really don't know what the charger is trying to put out.

In a nutshell, I agree. This is one viable scenario.

[Bill Liedtke]

Generac has asked for some specific information to be able to help with this issue. To date, I have nothing to take forward:confused: I guarantee that if it were to happen to me I would pursue it fully, but it has not as of this date. My own battery is mtce.-free, so not much I can do besides change changing methods.

Unless folks have specifics, I'm going to drop it on behalf of those who have offered info. I still would like to see Generac explain in lay terms, but with some specifics the thoery of how their charging systems should work. I.e. what is their aim to voltage to come out of their charger at what their circuit perceives as a fuilly charged battery and the minimal trickle current. That could put the issue to be all the way. Alas, they don't seem willing to even acknowledge our presence:mad:

[RobertMIA]

I installed my 04456 in September 2004. I now have to install my 4th battery due to the "exploding battery syndrome". I'm astonished to read that there are so many others in Florida who have had the same problem. My guess is that the warm, humid, Florida environment exacerbates the trickle charger's "cooking" of the battery. When battery #3 was installed, I had the unit checked by an "Elite" Generac dealer, and I was told that the charging system checked out OK. I specifically asked if Generac had issued a service bulletin regarding this issue. I was told no. On December 3rd, 2007 I discovered battery #3 exploded. I called Generac HQ and was told that there are no known issues with exploding batteries. The very sweet Customer Service Rep at Generac refered me to Kelly Myers and this blog. Certainly there must be a way individualy or collectively that Generac can be coerced to deal with this damaging and dangerous situation.

[Bill Liedtke]

Kelly,

Are you beginning to get convinced yet? You said you were going to discuss with Generac engineers. What was their response? If Generac has any interest in this issue whatsoever, they can certainly make contact with any of the posters here as well as their own elite dealers who have had the same experiences. Kelly, you have said that Generac monitors this forum. What is it going to take? Everytime I am ready to drop the issue, another victim emerges. If Generac does not come forward in any fashion that shows one ounce of interest in doing the right thing, I am going to see if an attorney can get their attention. Any attorney in the world would be all over this for free as class action suits are extremely lucrative for the law firms. Generac, by their failure to acknowledge us, has brought this attention right to their own doorstep. This is last call. I am serious as a heart attack about this.

[Gman1]

As a gen tech with a bunch (over 200 I would guess) of the newer style air cooled machines, I have never seen a battery explode in one. However in the previous models (4109? the smooth top, front opening model) I have seen several. It was my opinion that the explosions were caused by mounting the battery inside the engine compartment. If the unit were to crank after or during a "charging cycle" the gas would have permeated the whole inside of the cabinet and could be exploded by the starter, the solenoid, or any other spark/ignition source. Any time a battery is charged, it emits explosive gases, if this gas is contained, the possibility of exploding is increased. The batteries in the newer units are not in the engine compartment like the older ones were, but they are right under all the controls. The old 8Kw's had the battery mounted in a vented compartment completely separate from the engine and controls. I have only seen one or two of them with exploded batteries, and have worked on hundreds of them. The battery exploding seemed to have started with the new battery charger, but also when they moved the battery out of an enclosed, vented box and into the cabinet. Just a thought.

[Bill Liedtke]

Dear Gman1,

Thank you for your perspective. I have a 4390-3 and the battery is, as you say, in a seperate compartment which is vented and under as the controls-not in the engine compartment. I must say that if I follow you correctly, you have only seen one or two mounted there that have exploded. I'm not sure whether that makes me feel good or bad. I guess any batteries exploding is bad if it happens when you are working on it or facing it. Generac will not comment. I certainly don't know the answer, but the one guy has had 4 batteries go in 4 years. Some are reporting that the water is just being "cooked" out of the battery which leads me to believe the charger circuit is too "hot" for the battery. Some don't explode, but go dry and fail too quickly which suggest a different problem. Until Generac decides to acknowledge the issue, we are left to speculate. I have written them twice and talked to a service rep once about it and am damned if I am going to kiss their butts to get an answer they should be eager to provide in the interest of safety. They can no longer play dumb about the problem- they choose to ignore it and hope it goes away. It will not. Are you still installing Generac units? Do you have any contacts that can define the issue better as to which model are prone? Can they offer a solution? If your thoughts were correct, a time delay relay that would prevent the motor from cranking until a charge cycle had been completed 10 minutes might work. Kelly was going to speak to GENERAC, BUT WE STILL HAVE NO ANSWER. What are people with maintenance -free batteries supposed to do to keep their wqter level up? There is no way this should cook the battery to this degree. I'm putting a battery tender on mine and disconnecting the internal unit, but that's $50 we should not have to spend. Tell us what you do now and if you have any contacts that can help. Welcome to the board as a voice of experience who has seen the problem first hand.

Bill

[Gman1]

Hi Bill, thanks for the welcome. I have not seen the problem in a unit like yours. It was the previous units that I noticed the problem with. They have the same battery charger that is used today. My thought was, is the gas exploding and causing the battery to explode or is the battery just exploding?

[Bill Liedtke]

One issue- two different outcomes I believe. Issue being charging voltage too high. Not necessarily the current, but the potential between the charger and the actual battery voltage. I believe the voltage of the charging circuit is too much higher than the voltage of a fully charged battery. Boils the water out. Outcome#1 is battery just keeps losing water. Not too bad with battery caps, but mtce.-free batteries, you are screwed. Outcome #2 is that the gas ignites and explodes. Either issue is battery charging circuit is flawed. Best case is that you don't get hurt....you just discover a mess and it hurts your wallet. Worst case is you lose your hearing like the guy who took a generator to a remote island to power his ham radio gear. The generator battery exploded while he was looking at it and he has not regained his hearing yet. His eyesight has gotten better. Generac won't discuss. Can anyone guess why that may be? If they really believe they have no problem thay should just say so. We are looking for people with contacts that can help us get to the bottom of the issue so as an installer, your experiences are most interesting to hear and we thank you for your willingness to help us be heard.



Bill

[kpdwpb]

We installed a 12Kw (Model 4456) this past summer. In early December, almost 6 months to the day installed, the battery exploded. When I took the battery in to the parts store the clerk, without any comment from me says, "Let me guess, it was in a Generac generator". He went on to say that his store alone sells 3-5 batteries each month for this, and has been over the last 12-16 months. This coincides with the fact that this was the period over which many have installed back-ups for post-Hurricane survival.

I would consider joining in on a class action suit, but consider it a measure of last resort. I'd like to hear others opinions, but I would like to recommend that as many of us with this issue submit an on-line complaint to the FTC-Consumer Protection. I did this several years ago with less than 2 dozen other local residents on a different product, and low and behold, the manufacturer got a visit from FTC investigators. Within 6 weeks, we received communication from the manufacturer regarding options available to us. None of them were complete give-aways on their part, but we got our issue addressed.

I'm submitting my complaint now, and would encourage as many others as possible to do the same. Let's see what happens. The URL for the FTC is; http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml

Best regards,
Kevin Dearden
West Palm Beach, FL

[kpdwpb]

Here's how my on-line complaint to the FTC-Consumer Protection reads;

Success!
Complaint Accepted. Thank you for your input.


First Name: Kevin
Last Name: Dearden
Age Range: 50 - 59
Street Address:
City: West Palm Beach
State or Province: Florida
Country: UNITED STATES
Zip Code or Postal Code: 33412
E-Mail Address:
Home Phone:
Work Phone: Ext.
Subject of Your Complaint: Home
Name of Company You Are Complaining About: Generac Power Systems
Street Address: Hwy. 59 & Hillside Road
P.O. Box 8
City: Waukesha
State or Province: Wisconsin
Country: UNITED STATES
Zip Code or Postal Code: 53187
Company Web Site: www.guardiangenerators.com
How Did the Company Initially Contact You?: Unknown
Did You File a Dispute with the Credit Bureau?: N
Explain Your Problem: (Please limit your complaint to 2000 characters.): (Product Name: Guardian Model 4456 (12 Kw) Back-Up Home Generator) Back-up generator professionally installed summer of 2007. In December of 2007, the battery to start the unit exploded. Investigating this on the Internet, a Web forum sponsored by Ziller Electric, zillerelectric.com, identified well over a dozen other consumers with the same issue. This battery explosion can cause serious injury to any consumer near the unit when it occurs. Technicians at Ziller have stated they have made repeated attempts to get Generac to put out a position on this, but to no avail. Essentially, Generac is stating the issue doesn't exist. An investigation is warranted by the FTC, as this affects consumers with Generac back-up generators everywhere they're sold in the US. By not acknowledging the situation, Genearac is endagering the lives of consumers. When this occurred on my unit in December, I happened to be approximately 20 feet away from it, and the noise level outside the generator sound enclosure well exceeded 110 dB. Smoke exited the unit, and the units components had to be washed down with water/baking soda to neutralize the battery acid.

[Bill Liedtke]

I believe the general thought (and it is only a thought because Generac doesn't want to be involved) is that battery gas is formed when the battery is over-charged or the potential of the charger has too high a voltage for a 12VDC battery. Gas builds up from the battery charge and then during a start cycle the heat from the strong demand on the battery creates enough heat to cause the gas to explode.

If someone in the know (like Generac) would enter the discussion we might save a serious injury. Generac seems more concerned with being sued.

Bill

[rentsch]

I have replaced batteries on a 7kw Guarding Standby unit 3 times in a 3 year period. The last one went last month and I decided to do some checking. All of the batteries failed by cracked cases and the cells that did not crack were lacking electrolyte.

In checking the charger, I found that the charging current was about 2.5 amperes and it did not reduce to Trickle Charge as specified. This changeover should occur when the the Battery reaches the proper full charge voltage which is about 13.8 vdc when charging. I found the voltage keeps increasing to about 15 vdc and overcharges the battery due to a defect in the charger which is probably caused by a failed component. This condition is indicated by a gas like smell, rotten egg?, around the battery compartment vents.

The batteries may have exploded however all I noticed was a broken case and electrolye on the base of the Generator and the ground below it. This is a design failure and could be dangerous in some cases. This is especially true as the gas line and regulator are nearby and the electrolyte is splashed on those parts causing corrosion.

I removed the two wire output plug from the module and installed a Marine trickle charger for the time being. The charge current should not exceed 200 to 300 ma in this size of battery when in float charge.

Writing the Product Safety Commission is indeed warranted.

[Bill Liedtke]

To all: RE: BATTERY EXPLOSIONS

Please contact the FTC if you have had a problem; whether it was an explosion or just a loss of electrolyte. The loss of electrolyte is the symptom of the disease. Some units seem more susceptable to this than others. I have written to Generac twice using their online form. In neither case did I even get a response-not even the form letter saying "thank you for your time". Needless to say, I was more than disappointed in this.

My next plea was to Kelly who moderates this forum. Kelly has no obligation to take on Generac on this issue. Kelly also stated that his company sells more units than anyone and he has never seen this happen. However, if you read his post earlier in this thread, he has said that he is going to take this issue up with the Generac engineers. It dies right there. There is no further comment from Kelly saying they are working on it, deny they have a problem, or refuse to comment. I, for one, would like to know what Generac said even if it was "go away" or "I'll get back to you" and then they never did. I would think the largest distributor would get a response or could demand one. The fact that Kelly has not wrapped this up tells me there is a known problem and they don't want to deal with the cost to fix it and would prefer Kelly (Ziller) stay out of it. I hate to say that, but I believe if Generac acknowledges the problem, they then CAN NOT ignore it. At this point, they can claim they know nothing of the issue, yet they "supposedly" monitor this forum.

If I were to send them a registered letter, that is probably their worst nightmare as they could then not claim ignorance of the problem. However, at this point I myself do not have this problem with my 4390-3 13KW unit. I would be reporting on behalf of others and have no serial numbers etc.

Last, I spoke on the phone with a "Katie" at Generac customer service who said she would pass-on the issue to engineering, but she said it would not go very far without specifics such as serial number, model, date installed, brand of battery, etc. This too rings somewhat of a stall tactic. I believe Generac could examine their whole philosophy of how their charging system is designed without these specifics. This is a small forum. If we have this many instances in a small forum like this, what is the chance that this problem is not HUGE?

I spoke with my local elite dealer in Michigan City, Indiana named Current Electric. I asked if they had ever had any instances of this problem and the owner told me that they had two. One was when a consumer called them to try to get a new battery as theirs was shot. The other instance the battery exploded while their technician was actually working on a unit. He was uninjured as he was off to the side. Battery acid in your eyes or on your face would not be a pretty sight. If I was an attorney or had one in my family, I would initiate a class action suit in a heartbeat based upon what we have here. If Generac would acknowledge the problem, I would probably be more amicable.

If you are nervous about this issue, I would do as this last person has done and disable the internal charger and hook up a battery tender brand (or similar quality) external charger which you will have to pay about $50 out-of-pocket to obtain. I would not relish messing with the battery in the unit. Certainly do NOT attempt this without eye protection and disconnect the unit from any power source for a 1/2 hour at least prior to even touching the battery. If someone who has particulars is willing to send a registered letter to Generac engineering, you would then have a case. Hopefully, someone has enough information and is angry enough to not let this die. I really don't want to read about someone who got hurt like was in the QST ham radio magazine last fall. I would be more than willing to reimburse any of you for your trouble. Good luck and be safe-

Bill Liedtke

[kpdwpb]

Good recommendation on submitting a complaint to the Consumer Protection Agency, which I just did, but recognizing that there's seemingly a lot of politics going on within the agency, I think it's prudent to take Bill's recommendation and disable the units trickle charger and to install an external charger.

Bill; can you provide me instructions, or recommendations on who I can get them from, on how to properly disable the trickle charger?

Thanks everyone
Kevin

[Bill Liedtke]

Thank you all on behalf of the rest of us if you submitted a FTC complaint. You may nave saved someone's eye sight, hearing, or in the case of a super-model, their career! Seriously, you did a good thing.

AS far as disabling the charger, it may be as simple as removing the 5 amp fuse from the holder on the main programming panel and then hooking up your own trickle charger to your battery and plug it into the external 110V outlet on the side of the unit. However, I am just a guy like you all trying to make my way in this world without paying every idiot for shoddy, over-priced repairs. I don't claim to be, nor am I a generator tech. I'm a 53 year old geek who has been a ham radio operator since age 8, avid car buff and restorer (ergo, the preference for trickle chargers) and a plant manager for a steel company so I am not afraid to tackle most any repair and I read a LOT of whatever I can get my hand on. I recently replaced my stator on my 4390 when a Generac "Elite dealer" did not want to "work in a customer's garden" and wanted $1600 to repair my in-warranty Generac so I had to do it myself using generac parts, Kelly's knowledge, and two part Saturdays. I gave my repair manual to the next guy who had a dead 4390 and so on and so on.

Repair manuals are on line. If you can't decipher them I will for you gladly. I will not give advice on a specific unit until I look at your schematic. If I tell you to do something, I want to know you are better off for it and not worse off! I also want you to know that working on your own unit may void your warranty if you still have one or care. If it can be done pulling the fuse and plugging in a trickle charger is pretty easy and clean if that will work. Do not do it until I look at your unit, but I think that is what the 5 amp fuse is for. Remember, I only have a 4390-3 of my own and a new 16kw unit I installed for my next-door neighbor last month. I think he has a 5243 or something close.

Harbor freight tools and others sell trickle chargers for as little as $8 plus shipping. I trust them, but don't tout them. If money is not an object, I will always use the unit called "Battery Tender" which is more like $50, but is rugged and time proven on classic cars left in storage for years with no adverse effects.

Shoot me your model number and I will research tonight as well as look again at my own unit and battery. I have a sealed battery so it is difficult to know the internal condition. I would always call Generac customer service first and give them a chance to rectify, but I don't know of any batteries personally replaced by them. You can try. Kelly can tell you off the top of his head the answers to a lot of these questions, but he has to maintain that fine line with Generac and can not go out and take a stance without a great deal of possible repercussions. I feel "ok" asking him to speak to Generac on our behalf, but beyond that I don't think we can ask him to put a relationship on the line. Due to the severe nature of the injury that could occur, I would hope Generac would say cost-be-damned and do whatever the next right thing is.

Bill Liedtke

[Kelly Myers]

The fact that Kelly has not wrapped this up tells me there is a known problem and they don't want to deal with the cost to fix it and would prefer Kelly (Ziller) stay out of it. I hate to say that, but I believe if Generac acknowledges the problem, they then CAN NOT ignore it. At this point, they can claim they know nothing of the issue, yet they "supposedly" monitor this forum.
Bill Liedtke

Please don't put words into my mouth. We continue to install 2 generators a day, as well as shipping out hundreds of generators across the nation each day.. I have yet to receive a phone call from a customer of mine stating that the generator we installed/sold them has experienced this issue. Since I have yet to investigate this happening, I can't give my .02 on it.. Obviously there seems to be an issue, but for some reason I've yet to have one of our products experience this.

Not sure what more you want me to do, according to server logs, generac frequents this forum around 30 times a day. So I'm sure they know about it.

If I have a battery charge issue with one of the many thousands of generators I have sold or installed, I will investigate. Until then, I can't go off 2nd hand information and badger generac about it.

[Bill Liedtke]

Kelly,

I do not believe I put words in your mouth. I think if you review my posts, I have always taken the "high road" as far as you are concerned personally or your company. I have said "Kelly has no obligation to this forum, Kelly does not have to talk to Generac for us, etc". If I put words in anyone's mouth it is Generac's- not yours. I take that very seriously and would like you to tell me where I spoke for YOU Kelly.

You volunteered way back in post #6 to take this to the engineers at Generac. Did you? If you did, what was their response? That is what more we would like you to do "at this point". Finish what you volunteered to start and tell us what Generac said or why they won't deal with these people.

I, speaking only for myself, really don't want to hear again that Ziller has sold 2000 units or 2 million units and never seen this problem. How is this relevant? The fact is that this is a small forum yet there are many, many instances stated here of this happening. Even a Generac Elite dealer had it happen to his employee while working on one of their customer's units. The fact that you have not seen it at Ziller means what? That it never happened? (Now I am putting words in your mouth). This is your forum Kelly. You started it and it's your baby. I assume you did it for some reason and my *guess* is that this is not what you had in mind. Well, sorry. Whether you intend to or not you are coming across like you too are in denial. If you want to help these folks, get them someone at Generac who will address their issues or the FTC will do it for them. There are incidents here of people measuring highly excessive current when their charger should be in "trickle mode". Generac should put someone in a car and go look into it. That's what companies do that don't want bad P/R. Either help fix the problem or become part of the problem. If you feel you have done everything you can possibly do then I respectfully suggest you not post here anymore (in this thread). That's just my opinion as your posting, but not helping, will not help you or Ziller. Just my
.02

I think it would be better if Generac helps these folks one by one until they decide what is at work here and then decide if a fix is warranted or a recall, or what. They have experienced tremendous growth and profitability. They know their outside service group is severely lacking in many areas. They need to slow down and make sure they are not creating problems in their haste to solve problems.

Bill Liedtke

[Kelly Myers]

I started this forum to help out people with tech support. This is obvious a technical issue that should be addressed, and you're reaching generac by having your posts here.

Since I have not experienced this problem, I cannot go any further. Theres certain things that I would do on a damaged generator to find out what caused it. If and when I experience a failed battery charger, I will pursue it with generac. You should probably pressure your elite dealer into contacting generac, instead of me, especially since one of their technicians was almost injured. They were on site, they can figure out what happened, and they can give first hand info to generac.

Please do not include me in your other posts about this subject, as I cannot do anything more. I'm not in denial of anything, and if we experience a blown up battery, I will personally call you with the information I find.

Saying that I'm in denial is pushing it, especially when I know how my company functions. Any other derogatory remarks about us will net this complete thread being deleted.

Thanks.

[Bill Liedtke]

Deleting this thread is like saying you are taking your toys and leaving. Nothing derogatory has been said about your company. I asked you before to tell me where I am putting words in your mouth and you could not. I similarly want to know what I have said derogatory about your employer?

I said that will all due respect that maybe you should not say any more about this thread given your position and that's fine. We see that we need to go another way and we will. Is that sufficient? I did not tie your company to this forum, you did. You did not have to link their name with this forum. You did it that way for a reason and we can figure that out. You will not be mentioned again. I told you that before. Fell free to PM me and we can discuss on the phone if you like, but nothing derogatory has been said about you or your company. It just isn't going the way you anticipated and I'm sure your company doesn't like it.

Bill Liedtke

[kpdwpb]

On Monday evening, 14 January, at the recommendation of one of the forum posters, I submitted an on-line complaint to the Product Safety Commission, I received an e-mail and phone message back from one of their field personnel here in Florida (Orlando, specifically). Below is the wording from his e-mail to me, and I encourage the handful of Florida owners who have experienced this to get on-line and submit one of their own complaints.

From his e-mail;

Thanks for notifying us about this problem.

I have been asked to document all the product and circumstances regarding the battery explosion.

Please keep all receipts and any evidence that might help document this problem.

I will make arrangements to come and photograph the battery, the trickle generator and take some voltage readings.


It feels like we're making some headway on this, everyone. Let's not get short with each other, when we share a common purpose, and that is to cure a potential safety issue on a product which is becoming more and more common place throughout the States. We're on the same side, let's not get polarized at this point, please.

[Bill Liedtke]

I could not agree more. Your points are all well made. I hope that you do not feel I over-stepped the line of reasonableness (is that a word!?) I personally have not experienced the problem with my generator and have stated that from early on. My purpose here is two fold: to hopefully prevent anyone from getting hurt or injured. My nightmare is that it would come to my attention somehow that someone got hurt or lost their eyesight and I would know that I failed to act. Secondly, I believe I can help some people to hook up an external trickle charged should they want to. I am not telling anyone to do this as it is each person's individual decision, but should they want to I will try to help them. I have no dog in this fight so to speak. Our common goal is and should be to solve the problem. I personally believe it would be easier with Generac's assistance, but that has not come forth to this point. Therefore, I believe we are trying to act responsibly and professionally.

I once stated that if Generac ever went public I would buy their stock as I believe they have a terrific product. Not a perfect product, but the best I have ever seen and I hope we can resolve this together.

[Bill Liedtke]

To disable the internal battery charger, I am amending my recommendations. I looked on my schematic and my charge voltage goes through the larger 15 amp fuse. On the 4390 and likely others, there are two aluminum "boxes" or square devices mounted near the control board. One is the voltage regulator and the other is the battery charger. On my unit, the silver-gray device that's about 3" square on the left is the battery charger controller and the one on the right with like 5 connections all in a row and a red led is the voltage regulator. I would pull the output wire from the charger module. On my unit it is terminal one on the output side. Leave the fuses in. Then connect a battery tender or alternate charger of some kind. Best to look at your owners manual and see the wire number that exits the charger module and goes to the battery. On my unit, the wire number is #13. Since there are more owners manuals listed, try to follow the owners manual schematic. It appears this is the best way on the 4390.

Wait a good 1/2 hour and make sure you are not close to the exercise time. Best to throw the main breaker in the unit. You will have to open the top panel. Throw the breaker to "off" which will make sure the unit does not try to come on should you lose city power at the same time you are doing this. go to: http://www.pacificbattery.com/charger.html there are many others who sell the battery tender. I prefer the 49 dollar one. It is a great charger to have around and will never cook your unit. It will also not start yourcar on a 10 below day. It's a full time trickle charger, but drops when it senses it can. Use this charger full time and plug it in to a full time 110v outlet. I believe the one on the side of my unit is always "hot" even under generator back-up. You are done and can forget about ever cooking your battery again.

Like I said, they make very cheap units, but I can not speak to their effectiveness. They put out a trickle charge, but may not have much "smart circuitry". Using one should not be a big deal. You have to decide for yourself if you want to do this. I can't recommend or advise you what to do with your unit. If you don't have an issue then why do it. My only question is whether a sealed battery will reveal it's condition to you. Can you really see the electrolyte level? I, for one, will do the mod. I also advise that you keep the charger dry. Put it inside the unit. Wherever it will fit and stay dry and clean. You may then forget about your battery until you are doing normal mtce. such as filter/oil changes, terminal cleaning, leaf removal, whatever. You should feel safe, but have likely just voided your warranty. At least it is simple to reverse. If you have questions, shoot me an email and I will try to answer. I, in no way, can say for sure whether Generac has a dangerous situation. Each of you should read the posts carefully and decide what your risks are. Some feel there is no problem, some feel it is due to a component failure, and some feel it is a bad design. I have no proof of any of these being absolutely true. Proceed at your own risk.

Bill Liedtke
BillLiedtke@netscape.net

[RobertMIA]

I too filed a complaint with the FTC on January 18, 2008. I look forward to hearing from them and hope that the FTC will take action to force Guardian to address and correct this situation.

[kpdwpb]

Hi, Robert. Since I have gained the interest from an investigator with the Product Safety Commision stationed in Orlando (see thread 43) it would be benefical for you to submit an on-line complaint to them as well. Here's the link, http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html. Icon for "Report an Unsafe Product", and then, "For consumers: report an injury, death, or unsafe product to us"

He's scheduling a visit next week to see my unit, the exploded battery, and other material (manuals, receipts, etc).

Kevin

[Bill Liedtke]

Kevin, give him a copy of this thread so he can see the magnitude we are talking about.

[kpdwpb]

Not sure I know what you mean by "give him a copy of this thread", Bill. Robert's first posting was thread #26, so he's able to see all of these threads, right? I am a novice at this, so it's very likely that I could be missing something. Thanks.

Kevin

[Bill Liedtke]

I was referring to giving your rep. from FTC a copy of this thread all the way back to thread #1 where I believe 3 different guys who all knew each other had separate, but similar issues just so the rep. can see: A) how large an issue is this? B) What steps have been done to rectify on our own. C) The fact that a Generac Elite rep reported this issue happening twice to his own techs. Once, the battery exploded while a tech was working on the unit. The owner of the firm said that he mentioned it to a Generac engineer at one of their many get-togethers where they get training, etc. The engineer said he would "look into it". The Elite rep said he never heard another word about it.

This is second hand knowledge to me. If they are interested they (the FTC) could contact these people directly. Need to keep in mind that all GENERAC dealers make money selling and installing units. Servicing units is another matter and is not profitable for most installers, but comes with the territory. If they want to sell, the must service, but that does not mean they like it, are good at it, or make as much money as they would doing new work. Some dealers will stay on top of the training and will always be responsible. Many are less so. There are also a ton of nightmares in here about botched service calls, mis-diagnosis, and worse. These folks are not eager to upset Generac who I think really tries to make it right, but are somewhat at the mercy of a rather mediocre service group. The Zillers of this world are not the rule, but more the exception in that they sell enough units that they must do good service and economies of scale helps greatly. However, how far (in miles) would you send a service man to service a $4K unit sold in say...Arizona from a Northern state? At some point, another tech might have to be their eyes, ears, and fingers. The phone has to substitute for being there.

[kpdwpb]

Just an update on the investigation into this by the CPSC. An investigator from Orlando stopped by my home on Friday, 25 January 2008. He reviewed all documentation (receipts, manuals, etc) this website, and obviously the unit itself. He spent about an hour and a half taking copius notes & photos as we spoke. He was returning to Orlando to begin writing an investigation report which he will copy me on when it is released.

This is not the Fedral Trade Commission, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission, a federal agency in Bethesda, Md., with branch offices in each state. Especially for those in Florida, the more on-line complaints they receive, the more ammunition the CPSC investigator will have in approaching the manufacturer. If you haven't submitted one yet, regardless of where you live, please do so.

Kevin

[John H]

Add another to the list. I just purchased my home 2 weeks ago and the genset worked fine at closing. I went out two days ago to check oil and the "tinker" and found the battery in pieces. I called the previous owner and he never had a problem with the unit.

I stumbled upon this forum when I searched in google for batteries blowing up in generac's.

This problem does not give me a "warm fuzzy" about this unit. I'm going out tonight to get some baking soda and a new Group 26 battery. Yay for home ownership. :(

John

[Bill Liedtke]

PLEASE help us by reporting this in your state to the consumer protection group, BBB, and whoever else will listen. This could happen when you are servicing your unit and blind you forever. We have been trying to get attention to this issue for months and Generac refuses to even comment so we are going another route. What state are you in?

[John H]

Virginia. I'll get my exact model # and serial # and call whoever will listen.

Thanks.

[Bill Liedtke]

Read up a few posts on this thread and I think that you will find a link to the consumer protection folks even though you are in a different state. What model do you have? Approx. how old is it if you know? You can defeat the internal charging circuit and put your own trickle charger on it if you want to keep this from happening again. I would certainly call Generac whether your model is in warranty or not and give them all the details of what you found. I would also tell them you want a fix for this or you are going to have to take it farther. Generac customer service is 888-436-3722. Good luck and thank you from all the rest of the forum who are trying to find resolution.

Bill

P.S. the model number will help us try to put together an idea of which units are effected. We believe (or I believe) not all units are like this and that newer units may have be fixed in the design stage. Try the direct approach first calmly explaining what happened, your model and serial number. They will probably tell you that if it wasn't installed by a licensed Generac service center that they are not responsible, but give them a chance before going elsewhere. If you haven't read all the posts here on this one subject, you may want to when you have some "down time"

[John H]

I read them all. Its just pouring rain here today.... I'll likely get the info over the weekend and call on Monday.

Thanks!

[Bill Liedtke]

Model and age please?

[ibfestus]

First of all I had a 005243 installed in Jan of '07.

I am retired from the auto/commercial battery industry and although I am neither a engineer nor a electrician, I may have useful information.

Batteries blowing up in generators is not a new development and is not specifically linked to Generac. One of our customers was a very large hospital that had a dozen or more back up generators that used 8D batteries for starting the big diesel Cat engines. An 8D battery is 4X as large as a auto battery and weighs in at over 100 lbs. Sometime around 2004 these batteries began exploding. This was a surprise because we had been supplying their batteries for years prior to this with zero problems. We discovered 2 things: 1)The batteries were under a trickle charge continously. 2) At their request, we had switched to "maintenance free" type batteries. "Maintenance free" is not a good description, "maintenance impossible" is more accurate.

Bottom line is the hospital had a strict inspection routine that called for the inspector to check the electrolyte every 30 days, they couldn't do that so the batteries started "gassing" as soon as the electrolyte went low and Ka-Boom! By the way, a battery can only explode when there is a spark present.

This also applies to this discussion, either you have maintainable batteries or not. If not, you cannot have a constant trickle charge or there will be trouble. A simple solution would be to have the generator only charge during the excercise cycle. I reiterate, you must either maintain the battery, or not use a constant trickle charge. With that said, there are chargers on the market that only supply voltage when the battery falls below something like 12.0v and cuts out when the battery gets over 12.6v (full charge).

A bit about battery groups. Battery Council International (BCI) is the body that standardizes group sizes for battery manufacturers. The very first battery that was standardized was, of course, the group 1... a 6v battery that is still being built. A particular battery group has set dimensions. The letter after the number relates to terminal configuration. The standard battery has the positive post on the left side when viewed with the post toward the front. A 26R has the posts "Reversed," 26M has marine terminals, and the ubquitous 26DT has both top and side posts. A 26DC is a "Deep Cycle" battery. The 26DT was at one time arguably the most popular battery in the U.S.. It is small, will fit many applications, has both top and side (GM) terminals, and was heavily promoted by the large discount chains. They used to love the DT's because it cut down the number of different groups in the inventory. If you have a local store that specializes in batteries you should be able to get a group 26 with as many as 750 CCA.

Oh yeah, for what it is worth, I changed out the cables on my 5243 and moved the battery to the ouside the enclosure. The battery I'm using is a group 24 marine starting battery (600CCA) housed in a marine battery box

Sorry to get long here but I hope this helps somebody.

[Bill Liedtke]

From all of us who own generators, I think I can give you a group "thank you". I read every word with great interest and respect for your knowledge and the clarity you bring to the subject.

I do not fully know whether I feel good or bad about what you said. On one hand I am pleased that Generac may not be the only one with this problem around their neck. On the other hand, we potentially have a bigger problem than first thought. I guess it surprises me a little that companies competent enough to design and build a generator would not know about a constant trickle charge. You say that a battery can not explode without an ignition source (a spark), but where is this spark coming from? I think heat can become that ignition source. I envision something internal to the battery getting hot enough to glow or set off the built-up gases.

What other devices come to mind when you think of this problem? Any application that has a constant charge without a fixed cut off, I guess. What is the solution at this point for the manufacturer in your estimation? I know what you said the consumer can do, but what do you think the industry or at least Generac should do to warn the consumer? How dangerous do you see this problem to be?

Again, please feel free to educate us to whatever degree you can. Can a maintenance impossible battery be modified to take water?

Bill

[M Miller]

Thanks for the information festus. I had considered going to a maintenance free battery but knew they were vented and could gas so I was concerned about not being able to fill them. Now I know maintenance free is not a good idea.

As to "where is the spark coming from" I had posted information I had found about this in an earlier battery thread. This is from http://www.batteryfaq.org/ Section 14.3

The most probable cause of internal battery explosions are from a combination of low electrolyte levels below the plates in the battery, a low resistance bridge is formed between or across the top of the plates, and a build up of hydrogen gas in the cell. The low resistive bridge is called "treeing" between the positive and negative plates. When current flows in the battery, a spark occurs and ignites the residual gas in one or more of the cells. A second possible cause is a manufacturing defect in the weld of one of the plate connecting straps causing a spark igniting the residual gas. Another source of internal battery explosions are caused from direct electrical shorts across the battery's terminals. The battery rapidly over heats form the high current and can explode. The largest number of internal battery explosions occur in hot climates due to the loss of water while starting the engine. Most internal battery explosions could have been prevented if the plates were always covered with electrolyte.

[Bill Liedtke]

Yes Mike you sure did. I recall your previous post now that you mentioned it. So, Generac should either re-engineer their charging system, include a note to the consumer to not use mtce. free, or both. Seems like the likelihood that someone would use one though is great and the circuit should be redesigned. I would imagine it's not that simple though and the best bet if the battery can get enough charge would be only charge at exercise cycle or a timer circuit that runs the charge cycle for 20 minutes maybe once a day.

Bill

[ibfestus]

Several years ago I was involved in a law suit. One of the batteries I sold had exploded injuring the owner. In that case a farmer had taken his tractor battery in to the Co-op to be charged. They put in on heavy charge for 30 minutes and when the farmer picked it up in his arms... KaBoom. Essentially, any time a battery is charged it gives off hydrogen gas and in this instance the farmers wool shirt against the plastic battery created enough static electricity to set it off.

We prevailed when a battery engineer testified on our behalf that only an "external" spark could cause an explosion. The warning on all batteries specifically states "Danger/poison no sparks flames or smoking." The spark can come from loose connections or the brushes in starters/alternators or even static electricity.

Personally I believe a 500 CCA battery is plenty to crank an engine like the GT-990. Furthermore, I believe the excercise cycle of 12 minutes per week should be enough to keep the battery charged. (Caveat: That is if it starts easily. Mine starts every time in about 10-15 seconds.) The battery on your auto would be OK if you ran it 12 minutes every week. By the way it is not cold that is your battery's enemy, it is heat. A fully charged battery will not freeze until way below zero. A discharged battery will freeze and burst.

"Can a maintenance free battery be modified..." Yes, some can be be opened
and water added while others are sealed with plugs that generally can't be removed. In any event, forcing the covers off will most likely void any warrantee.

For me to advise the manufacturer would be presumptious, but, if I were them, I would advise placing the battery outside the unit in a separate container. That would probably reduce the explosions to nil but a constant trickle charge will run the electrolyte out at minimum ruining the battery. That gets us back to the requirement to maintain the battery.

[Bill Liedtke]

Festus, I think I have the picture. The only difference still remaining in my mind is that http://www.batteryfaq.org/ posted by Mike states that the spark can be created internally in the battery if the electrolyte level drops below the top of the plates. Your statement seems to indicate that a spark in the unit is what lights them off and removing them from the box *should* cure the problem. This seems th contradict what the battery group says in that a spark can still be created in the battery by a bridge. This says the battery is at risk no matter where it is stored as long as a constant trickle is applied.

[Gman1]

"What other devices come to mind when you think of this problem?"

While it didn't happen to me personally, I was present when a battery blew up in a car on two separate occasions. I think the lesson here is that batteries store energy of more than the 12 volt kind and need to be treated with respect at all times.

On a side note, I asked someone of importance why other people were having this problem and we were not. His reply was that "you maintain your batteries". This is true to a degree. We have a post cleaner that has cutters for both the post and terminal. We use this on all of our batteries...even on a new install. This insures a good connection and we see almost no corrosion. When we do any service on a unit, we clean them again. Lastly, we noticed a long time ago that generators were hard on batteries and we replace them every two years. This may insure that the electrolyte never gets low enough to cause the internal sparking mentioned earlier. I have tried not to comment on this post as it becomes increasingly legal, but in the interest of personal safety, I would like everyone to know that batteries are dangerous whether in your generator, your car, or your riding lawnmower. My $.02

[Gentleman]

ibfestus:

I read your post on mounting your battery in an external marine battery box. I too own a 5243 and I would like to do the same. Could you post some photos of your installation for those of us who wish to do likewise?